【No. 0056】One of the most difficult English phrases for Japanese is ...
Feb 12, 2015 23:26
I heard that one of the most difficult English phrases for Japanese to understand is "one of the most adjective + plural." I think this is true because I also confused this phrase. We learn that "the most" means "もっとも(mottomo)," and that the intended thing by "mottomo" should be only one. That is, "mottomo" is including the meaning of "only one." However, the words "one of + 'plural'" is attached to "the most." In view of Japanese, this is inconsistent because "one of" intends multiple things while "the most" intends only one thing. For example, when we read the sentence like "One of the highest mountains is...", we might wonder the highest mountain is not only one. Therefore, we learn something like "the most" intends things which belong to a superior group in this case. I was already accustomed to the phrase, but some Japanese are not persuaded because the Japanese words corresponding to "one of the most" is unnatural.
Also, I heard a professor in a US university said that we should use "one of the more" instead of "one of the most." I don't know whether this point is correct or not, but I think it's interesting.
Also, I heard a professor in a US university said that we should use "one of the more" instead of "one of the most." I don't know whether this point is correct or not, but I think it's interesting.
Corrections (2)
No. 1 Ferris Wheel
- One of the most difficult English phrases for Japanese is ...
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
- I heard that one of the most difficult English phrases for Japanese to understand is "one of the most 'adjective' + 'plural'." I think this is true because I also confused this phrase.
- I heard that one of the most difficult English phrases for Japanese to understand is "one of the most 'adjective' + 'plural'." I think this is true because I was also confused by this phrase.
- We learn that "the most" means "もっとも(mottomo)," and that the intended thing by "mottomo" should be only one.
- We learned that "the most" means "もっとも(mottomo)," and that the intended word for "mottomo" should be only one.
- That is, "mottomo" is including the meaning of "only one." However, the words "one of + 'plural'" is attached to "the most." In view of Japanese, this is inconsistent because "one of" intends multiple things while "the most" intends only one thing.
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That is, "mottomo" includes the meaning of "only one." However, in English, the words "'one of' + plural" is used with "the most." In the view of Japanese, this is inconsistent because "one of" implies multiple things while "the most" implies only one thing.
"'One of' + plural" isn't always attached to "the most".
- For example, when we read the sentence like "One of the highest mountains is...", we might wonder the highest mountain is not only one.
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For example, when we read a sentence like "One of the highest mountains is...", we might think that there is no single, highest mountain.
It sounds clearer just to say it this way.
- Therefore, we learn something like "the most" intends things which belong to a superior group in this case.
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Therefore, we learn something like "the most" implies things that belong to a superior group in this case.
"The most" is called a superlative.
- I was already accustomed to the phrase, but some Japanese are not persuaded because the Japanese words corresponding to "one of the most" is unnatural.
- I was already accustomed to the phrase, but some Japanese are not persuaded because the Japanese words corresponding to "one of the most" are unnatural.
- Also, I heard a professor in a US university said that we should use "one of the more" instead of "one of the most." I don't know whether this point is correct or not, but I think it's interesting.
- This sentence is perfect! No correction needed!
We use the phrases "one of + superlative" all the time in English. "One of the most + plural", "one of the best + plural", "one of the worst + plural", "one of the greatest + plural", etc. These phrases are vague and have become a cliche that teachers tell students not to use in their writing.
Usually, we use these phrases for things that aren't "the most", but aren't "the least" either. For example, we would just say Mount Everest is the highest mountain. Rather than say Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison, we would say it is "one of the highest".
We also use these phrases for subjective comparisons or things that can't be measured. So Michael Jackson would be called "one of the greatest performers" because we can't measure whether he actually was or not.
This was interesting to read. I never knew the Japanese were confused by this. XD
Toru
Thank you so much for your correction and your comments! :D
> We also use these phrases for subjective comparisons or things that can't be measured.
I thought "one of + superlative" is very convenient in such a case!
In Japanese, we only can say like "Michel Jackson is an extremely great performer."
And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" (or "Kamet mountain is higher than many other mountains.") is more natural.
By the way, I have something I'd like to ask you about. I learned "the most" is equal to "more ... than any other...," but is the following sentence is unnatural?
"Kamet is one of the more higher mountain than any other mountains."
Thank you so much for your correction and your comments! :D
> We also use these phrases for subjective comparisons or things that can't be measured.
I thought "one of + superlative" is very convenient in such a case!
In Japanese, we only can say like "Michel Jackson is an extremely great performer."
And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" (or "Kamet mountain is higher than many other mountains.") is more natural.
By the way, I have something I'd like to ask you about. I learned "the most" is equal to "more ... than any other...," but is the following sentence is unnatural?
"Kamet is one of the more higher mountain than any other mountains."
Toru
> And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" (or "Kamet mountain is higher than many other mountains.") is more natural.
Sorry, it's my mistake.
I wanted to say as follows:
And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" is more natural because it seems to be correct strictly.
Also, I thought "Kamet is the higher mountain than many other mountains." is also natural.
> And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" (or "Kamet mountain is higher than many other mountains.") is more natural.
Sorry, it's my mistake.
I wanted to say as follows:
And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" is more natural because it seems to be correct strictly.
Also, I thought "Kamet is the higher mountain than many other mountains." is also natural.
Ferris Wheel
>"Kamet is one of the more higher mountain than any other mountains."
It is unnatural. This sentence would mean that Kamet is the highest mountain instead of Mount Everest, since "more...than any other" and "the most" are the same.
"Any" implies that Kamet is higher than all other mountains including the highest mountain (Everest). To be correct, we would say "Mount Everest is higher than any other mountain" and "Kamet is higher than most other mountains." If you want to keep the "one of + comparative + plural", you could also say "Kamet is one of the higher mountains."
Also remember that the comparative "higher" already means "more high", so it should only be "higher", not "more higher".
>And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" is more natural because it seems to be correct strictly.
It is correct for us too. However, unless we're talking a lot about something like Kamet specifically, then we just use "one of + superlative" because we're lazy XD
and since "29th highest" doesn't seem important compared to #1 highest.
>"Kamet is the higher mountain than many other mountains." is also natural.
It should be "Kamet is higher than many other mountains." You would take out "mountain" to avoid repeating yourself. You would also take out "the" since you removed its noun and since the comparison isn't definite. There can be many "higher" mountains other than Kamet.
Hopefully this helps you. :)
>"Kamet is one of the more higher mountain than any other mountains."
It is unnatural. This sentence would mean that Kamet is the highest mountain instead of Mount Everest, since "more...than any other" and "the most" are the same.
"Any" implies that Kamet is higher than all other mountains including the highest mountain (Everest). To be correct, we would say "Mount Everest is higher than any other mountain" and "Kamet is higher than most other mountains." If you want to keep the "one of + comparative + plural", you could also say "Kamet is one of the higher mountains."
Also remember that the comparative "higher" already means "more high", so it should only be "higher", not "more higher".
>And for me, the sentence "Kamet is the 29th highest mountain by comparison" is more natural because it seems to be correct strictly.
It is correct for us too. However, unless we're talking a lot about something like Kamet specifically, then we just use "one of + superlative" because we're lazy XD
and since "29th highest" doesn't seem important compared to #1 highest.
>"Kamet is the higher mountain than many other mountains." is also natural.
It should be "Kamet is higher than many other mountains." You would take out "mountain" to avoid repeating yourself. You would also take out "the" since you removed its noun and since the comparison isn't definite. There can be many "higher" mountains other than Kamet.
Hopefully this helps you. :)
Toru
I really appreciate your kindness!! I learned a lot from you. :D
But since I made a lot of mistake, I'm embarrassed. Ahh.
I really appreciate your kindness!! I learned a lot from you. :D
But since I made a lot of mistake, I'm embarrassed. Ahh.
RJ
Don't be embarrassed! Making mistakes is how you learn, and I'm impressed by your careful consideration of these phrases.
I personally think of the phrase "one of + (superlative)" as referring to something in a category. Mount Everest and Kamet both belong to the category "the 29 highest mountains" or more vaguely, "the highest mountains" if the speaker can't be bothered to decide exactly where the cutoff for 'high' is. It's also useful for superlatives in categories that may not have a strict ranking. "One of the prettiest pieces of art" is a compliment, since the art could be the best or equal to it, while "the fourth prettiest" is a bit of an insult, implying that three pieces of art are definitely better.
What do you make of the phrase "the best of the best" ? It's a bit of an oxymoron, but it's quite common. It can refer to a group, such as the top five in a group of a hundred, who are themselves the best of a thousand, or it can refer to the one best, who is distinguished even beyond the next best (those who are slightly worse).
Don't be embarrassed! Making mistakes is how you learn, and I'm impressed by your careful consideration of these phrases.
I personally think of the phrase "one of + (superlative)" as referring to something in a category. Mount Everest and Kamet both belong to the category "the 29 highest mountains" or more vaguely, "the highest mountains" if the speaker can't be bothered to decide exactly where the cutoff for 'high' is. It's also useful for superlatives in categories that may not have a strict ranking. "One of the prettiest pieces of art" is a compliment, since the art could be the best or equal to it, while "the fourth prettiest" is a bit of an insult, implying that three pieces of art are definitely better.
What do you make of the phrase "the best of the best" ? It's a bit of an oxymoron, but it's quite common. It can refer to a group, such as the top five in a group of a hundred, who are themselves the best of a thousand, or it can refer to the one best, who is distinguished even beyond the next best (those who are slightly worse).
Toru
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment!
> I personally think of the phrase "one of + (superlative)" as referring to something in a category.
I understood very well. However, the Japanese word "mottomo" can't imply a category, so we often say something like "Kamet is one of the mountains which belong to the top 30 heights," instead of "one of the highest" (of course, in Japanese).
> "the fourth prettiest" is a bit of an insult
Indeed, I also think this is a bit of an insult. In this case, we may say "one of the five prettiest pieces of art in the world. (maybe this means that it belong to the top 5)" in Japanese.
> What do you make of the phrase "the best of the best" ?
Actually, we don't express the phrase like "the best of the best" very much. Instead, we often use an adverb something like "extremely" or "super." But I think the English phrase "one of + (superlative)" is really useful to express degrees.
Also, I could be accustomed to the nuance of this phrase by grace of your explanation. Thank you again. (^^)
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment!
> I personally think of the phrase "one of + (superlative)" as referring to something in a category.
I understood very well. However, the Japanese word "mottomo" can't imply a category, so we often say something like "Kamet is one of the mountains which belong to the top 30 heights," instead of "one of the highest" (of course, in Japanese).
> "the fourth prettiest" is a bit of an insult
Indeed, I also think this is a bit of an insult. In this case, we may say "one of the five prettiest pieces of art in the world. (maybe this means that it belong to the top 5)" in Japanese.
> What do you make of the phrase "the best of the best" ?
Actually, we don't express the phrase like "the best of the best" very much. Instead, we often use an adverb something like "extremely" or "super." But I think the English phrase "one of + (superlative)" is really useful to express degrees.
Also, I could be accustomed to the nuance of this phrase by grace of your explanation. Thank you again. (^^)
No. 2 Mies
- That is, "mottomo" is including the meaning of "only one." However, the words "one of + 'plural'" is attached to "the most." In view of Japanese, this is inconsistent because "one of" intends multiple things while "the most" intends only one thing.
- That is, "mottomo" includes the meaning of "only one." However, the words "one of + 'plural'" are attached to "the most." From the Japanese viewpoint, this is inconsistent because "one of" implies multiple things while "the most" implies only one thing.
Very interesting. This is another good example of a case where the value of making sure to avoid searching for a direct equivalent in our native language when learning new constructions in a foreign one is emphasized.
Toru
Thank you very much for your correction and your comment! (^^)
Yes! I think literal translation is sometimes dangerous.
Thank you very much for your correction and your comment! (^^)
Yes! I think literal translation is sometimes dangerous.